tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post3474796233834356412..comments2024-01-09T15:03:54.986-05:00Comments on Wolf Howling: The Death of Freddie Gray & Baltimore's Race Riot (Updated)GWhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-18995807768265754402015-04-29T21:56:27.318-04:002015-04-29T21:56:27.318-04:00Interesting take on this from Judge Napolitano at ...Interesting take on this from Judge Napolitano at Fox News: http://video.foxnews.com/v/4204691859001/next-steps-in-freddie-gray-investigation/?#sp=show-clipsGWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-65563107760222083422015-04-29T21:26:01.565-04:002015-04-29T21:26:01.565-04:00Response Part 2:
Jeff, I went back and reviewed t...Response Part 2:<br /><br />Jeff, I went back and reviewed the video of the arrest. It begins after Mr. Gray was tasered. There is no evidence of police brutality on that tape, nor of broken legs. Yes, Mr. Gray is making sounds of pain every few seconds, but if you look, he also stands on the bumper of the vehicle in the moments before he is placed inside. There is no beating of him. Indeed, from my perspective, beginning after he was already on the ground, the arrest was wholly unremarkable. <br /><br />I also reviewed the information released about the autopsy (the report itself has not been released yet). The investigating officer was explicit that the only injury Mr. Gray sustained was the severing of his spine.<br /><br /><br />I have been present in more than a few arrests and have seen people complain about pain. It happens quite often, and the police often take that as crying wolf to be honest. That is why, in far too many cases, they end up being held liable for not providing treatment in a timely fashion when it is actually warranted. <br /><br />I have also seen more than a few people who refuse to walk after an arrest. That said, Mr. Gray may also still have been experiencing weakness from the taser, we will never know which is true, I suspect.<br /><br />There is speculation that Mr. Gray was subject to a "rough ride" to the police station, which more and more seems likely to be what killed him. But we will likely know more about that in a few days. If so, then at least one officer will be charged with reckless homicide.<br /><br />As to "clear from their actions that many prominent figures would like to see it brushed under the carpet," Good lord, why? What actions? That is just pure demonization, Jeff.<br /><br />As to Michael Brown, you're kidding, right. The DOJ Report of the evidence shows that officer Wilson was responding to the calls of that theft at the time he encountered Brown, and that he was literally in the process of trying to get out of his car to make an arrest when the incident actually took its violent turn. Moreover, past acts of violence are always of note when trying to determine whether someone acted violently on a particular occasion. <br /><br />As to Martin and dope smoking, certainly his prior dope smoking was irrelevant. As to whether there was any pot in his system at the time of his death, of course that is at issue, as it objectively effects judgement. <br /><br />As to Zimmerman's background, of course that was relevant. But I certainly don't recall it as you do. I recall some particularly egregious falsehoods made about one incident involving his attempt to help a small child. As to the rest, I agree that one could argue that he was a Walter Mitty type on the evidence. It is another matter entirely to claim in any way, shape or form that he was motivated by racism on that evidence.<br /><br />So bottom line, of course you are jumping to conclusions, Jeff. C'mon, you have a strong suspicion, but until you can verify one way or another, that is all you have. You know, I would never have suspected that the nutter in charge of Westboro Baptist Church was a Democrat candidate for office until I looked it up. <br /><br />I will go so far as to grant you this. Whoever traded those e-mails had no place being employed in a police station. <br /><br />And P.S. Enjoying the arguments. Thank you.<br /><br /> <br /> GWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-8308393174965825812015-04-29T20:28:48.405-04:002015-04-29T20:28:48.405-04:00Part 1 (Continued)
Indeed, I have seen that scena...Part 1 (Continued)<br /><br />Indeed, I have seen that scenario with tasar/gun at least two other times over the past several years on those facts alone? As to what the judge allowed or didn't allow for bail, if you are going to allow a bailee to travel outside of the state, what does the Bahamas have to do with it? It would be one thing if this was a murder charge, but it's not, nor do I suspect that the judge has any reason to doubt that the deputy will return to the jurisdiction to face charges.<br /><br />As to some commenters at a blog site, c'mon Jeff. As to Charles Johnson, I'll take your word that he is a nutter, in truth I don't even know who he is. I do not define people on the left, of whom there are millions in this country, by the comments I see at Daily Kos. To make the jump from a few commenters to paint the entire right with racism is such a leap in logic it qualifies as a non-sequitur.<br /><br />I would invite you to look to PJM or Instapundit or Ann Althouse, right wing sites, that are very much concerned with police abuses. But those abuses are largely colorblind. There are real issues over police militarization (which in fact includes police shootings in its ambit), over the misuse of laws, and over our treatment of the mentally ill who seem to make up most of those who end up dead in police shootings. What you won't find is a lack of concern for justice for anyone wrongly hurt or injured by police, nor a knee jerk reaction in the absence of evidence that racism must be the cause of something bad that happened to a black person.GWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-393113351191171862015-04-29T20:28:17.101-04:002015-04-29T20:28:17.101-04:00Thank you for the kind words Jeff. I do appreciat...Thank you for the kind words Jeff. I do appreciate that, as well, as I say, your willingness to engage. This will be a multipart response:<br /><br /><br />Riots that engulf a city are huge news, so they are going to get play. Local stories pretty much only become news nationally if they egregious and show injustice, or, in the alternative, they are emblematic of a systemic problem.<br /><br />There is no question that those riots are an outgrowth of systemic problems. The left wants to paint them as anger at racism. I think that the problems are in large measure a failure of the left's policies. Now, how to solve those issues, I won't even pretend to have all the answers. But until we can agree on exactly what are the problems, there is no chance of solving them. And that is in large measure the frustration that you are seeing from the right. I'll have a post up on that tonight that I invite you to read and comment upon.<br /><br />At any rate, because most on my side of the aisle see the problems facing a significant portion of the black community different than the left, we will always key on things that reflect our own beliefs. All sides do that. <br /><br />I saw no need to blog Walter Scott's case because I did not see that as an issue unique to race, nor did I see the event, tragic as it was and fully demanding of justice, as being improperly handled. Within three days, before the news even became national, the police officer had been arrested and charged with murder.<br /> <br />Jeff, there were 111 police involved shootings in March alone. The left seems to like to play this as a race issue, but if the numbers that I see are correct, they involve more whites than blacks as the target.<br /><br />Further, there is a knee jerk reaction on the left to claim that anything bad that happens to a person in a victim group has to have been caused by racism. That view grossly distorts reality. Now, it may be my background in the integrated U.S. military gives me a perspective that is not sufficiently sceptical. But I will not assume racism as a motivation unless it is obvious on its face or unless there is actual evidence proved in the aftermath. The mere fact that something bad happened is not, in and of itself, proof of anything other than the event. <br /><br />As to Eric Harris, in order to respond, I went to the Fox News site (one of about 40 places I visit a day by the way, along with the NYT) to reacquaint myself with the facts. A 73 year old reserve deputy grabbed his gun instead of his taser, by mistake. Indications are that his training records were subsequently falsified. It also appears that the deputy had probable cause to make the arrest.<br /><br />Again, where is the evidence of racism? Something bad happened. (Continued in next part) <br /><br />GWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-15529493090519327342015-04-29T15:58:16.632-04:002015-04-29T15:58:16.632-04:00PART 2
I know of no one claiming that Freddie Gray...PART 2<br /><i>I know of no one claiming that Freddie Gray is not entitled to full justice. I know of no one claiming that this should be brushed under the carpet. Are you suggesting that there is anyone on the right who is saying otherwise?</i><br /><br />No, I'm suggesting that is clear from their actions that many prominent figures would like to see it brushed under the carpet. <br /><br /><i>If there was the slightest evidence that there was a cover up or anything of that nature, as Allen West alludes to, then at least that would make the riots understandable.</i><br /><br />They are angry that this has been covered up time and time again. This time we have it on video. Even before they put him in the van, they were in the process of breaking legs. That's the reason he's screaming in pain as they throw him in the van. But I'm sure this is the first time that police have covered up brutality.<br /><br /><i>a person's background is a huge clue to how they are more or less likely to act in a particular situation.</i><br /><br />But it is usually irrelevant to the situation they find them in at the time. The fact that Michael Brown knocked off a convenience store is irrelevant to what happened to him afterwards. But we all know why that information was released - to give the Fox News crowd their racist dogwhistle. <br /><br />The fact that Trayvon Martin smoked dope (oh no!) is irrelevant to his being murdered. On the other hand, you're right that background can be relevant in cases. We on the left knew from reading about him that George Zimmerman was a psychopath Walter Mitty who had a history (and a history since) of arrests and domestic violence. But the right was happy to overlook that. And as sure as the sun shines, we're going to find out that these cops in Baltimore have a history of violence as well.<br /><br /><i>My question to you, though, do you know the political affiliation of any of the people who traded those e-mails? Are are you just jumping to a conclusion because it fits with the caricature of the right you have in your mind?</i><br /><br />Well, the fact that the emails denigrated blacks, welfare, the President and First Lady (who they called 'subhuman' and 'apes') doesn't really suggest Democrat voters. We tend not to call our President subhuman. You can call that unfair, but to posit that these were a bunch of Democrats is lunacy. So, no, I'm not jumping to conclusions in any way.<br /><br />PS. Thanks for the dialogue. You are by far the kindest blogger on the right I have ever come across. The majority shut down conversation or just scream and insult. Your willingness to engage me and challenge me is refreshing. I am sorry that you see my comment about racism in the republican party as ad hominem, but I've just seen too much evidence in public and in my own experience that it can't be ignored any longer. Believe it or not, I used to lean center-right. But I ran away from that at full speed as I started to really pay attention to the hatred that exists both on the fringe and among the politicians who clearly love their country but hate most of the people in it (or 47% of them anyway...)Jeffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-28455969408364566452015-04-29T15:58:01.560-04:002015-04-29T15:58:01.560-04:00PART 1
I don't understand why you think that a...PART 1<br /><i>I don't understand why you think that any news organization, blogger or radio show host would have to mention Walter Scott or Eric Harris in a story about the Baltimore riots.</i><br /><br />You misunderstand. I said that right wing news organization barely mentioned or outright ignored those other cases, but went hog wild talking about the riots. This is not by accident. Racists are much more interested in black violence than being confronted with incidences of police brutality against blacks.<br /><br /><i>As to Walter Scott, I haven't blogged that, but I have been following it.</i><br /><br />Case in point. And that should be a case that conservatives find common cause with. Cop murders a black man and then plants evidence. I thought you guys hated big government? Maybe only when it involves white ranchers in the desert who haven't payed taxes. <br /><br /><i>I have not followed the Eric Harris case so am not willing to comment.</i><br /><br />Probably because you don't go outside your Fox bubble. In that case, a rich man bought his way onto the police force and had higher-ups falsify his records so that he could do ride-alongs. He's out on bail now and the judge allowed him to go to the Bahamas with his family. Find me a case of a black man under arrest for manslaughter who finds his way to the Bahamas while out on bail. There are two types of justice in this country and if you followed such cases, maybe you would have a bit more empathy.<br /><br /><i>Do you honestly, for a moment, actually believe that anyone on the right (not counting the fringes on either side of the aisle) sees blacks as "apes" or "subhumans?"</i><br /><br />Look at this tweet from today by Charles Johnson, right-wing muckraker. <br /><br />https://twitter.com/ChuckCJohnson/status/593488563435601920<br /><br />Or any Breitabart comment section about Michelle Obama. Or the Ferguson report. Or, hell, it doesn't take a long Google search to find racist comments about Obama. The web is teeming with right wingers who have no shame and say such things.<br /><br /><i>That is a caricature built by the left</i><br /><br />The shoe fits. You just don't see it because you're in the bubble.<br /><br /><i>People are talking about the riot because they are horrified by it</i><br /><br />True. Everyone's talking about the riots. And they've been roundly condemned. But republicans are NOT talking about the rash of police shootings. And that's the difference.Jeffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-70536174514906451702015-04-29T00:40:09.961-04:002015-04-29T00:40:09.961-04:00Part 2:
I take offense at you suggesting that my ...Part 2:<br /><br />I take offense at you suggesting that my concern for justice is mere "paying lip service." There is nothing in the above post or any other thing I have written that suggests that I would be satisfied with less justice for any American because of their skin. You really need to stop those types of ad hominem's Jeff. Your arguments will be stronger without them.<br /><br />I will grant you one point - people on the right tend to reflexively assume that the police story is the accurate story. That is unfortunate because, within reason, every American should be skeptical, and I say that based on experience. <br /><br />Those of us with a bit more knowledge of police and police procedure are still willing to give some very limited leeway to police because it is a difficult job. But it is indeed limited to only very gray areas.<br /><br />As to digging up dirt, Jeff, a person's background is a huge clue to how they are more or less likely to act in a particular situation. That goes to both sides of the equation, actually. Having sued the police several times as well as defended them in cases that included police homicide, I can tell you that the background and history of the officers is every bit as much at issue as that of the other party. That is basic stuff, Jeff. If you are trying to get to the truth, deliberate ignorance of the past doesn't help. <br /><br />In the Michael Brown case, his background was particularly important in as much as it in fact supported the conclusion, along with all of the other evidence, that he was the aggressor. I am sure that you are not suggesting George Zimmerman or Darren Wilson should have been summarily sacrificed on the alter of racial politics without attempting to determine their guilt or innocence. That would be a lynching.<br /><br />In the above case of Mr. Gray, I don't think that he should ever have been arrested. His own background - a rap sheet for drugs, etc. - is meaningless to his death in this case. Those are bad facts. But we need to know them to then evaluate them up against what is relevant to his death. And against that - and his arrest for merely having a pocket knife - those bad facts are, it turns out, irrelevant. No American on either side of the aisle is going to say his death by spinal dislocation was justified by his rap sheet, regardless of what crimes it contained. <br /><br />As to your concluding paragraph, most of that is just ridiculous and I will ignore it. That said, you are right about one thing. My generation grew up with ethnic humor of all sorts. The pc culture, which I think goes well overboard in so many other areas, has made such ethnic humor unacceptable. That is probably a good thing in the long run, and the jokes made in the Ferguson PD were inappropriate. My question to you, though, do you know the political affiliation of any of the people who traded those e-mails? Are are you just jumping to a conclusion because it fits with the caricature of the right you have in your mind?<br /><br />The problem I have with caricatures is that, if you are not willing to realize their limits, they forestall rational argument. At any rate, you seem willing to engage, Jeff, and I appreciate that.GWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-73356444721323529652015-04-29T00:38:09.847-04:002015-04-29T00:38:09.847-04:00Jeff, thank you the comment. My two part response...Jeff, thank you the comment. My two part response is below.<br /><br />I don't quote the full post from Allen West. In there, he makes the point that there is an ongoing investigation of Freddie Gray's death and that there appears to be no coverup. We don't yet know what caused the severe injury to Freddie Gray. Indeed, as in my post, Allen West leads with that. What more can he say? <br /><br />The story, unfortunately, is that these riots seem disconnected from what is happening regarding Freddie Gray's death. Surely, you aren't going to take the position that riots that convulse a major American city aren't in and of themselves news.<br /><br />I don't understand why you think that any news organization, blogger or radio show host would have to mention Walter Scott or Eric Harris in a story about the Baltimore riots. As to Walter Scott, I haven't blogged that, but I have been following it. Something bad happened in that case and the officer is appropriately going to face trial for murder. I have not followed the Eric Harris case so am not willing to comment. <br /><br />That said, 111 people were killed by police in March, 2015. Do you expect everyone to be discussed on the right before discussing the riots? Or just the one's the left wants to highlight at the time? <br /><br />Do you honestly, for a moment, actually believe that anyone on the right (not counting the fringes on either side of the aisle) sees blacks as "apes" or "subhumans?" That is a caricature built by the left, and it is an incredibly insulting one. It is one I believe that the left uses so they don't have to address the core issues that remain unsolved in far too large a portion of the black community. Far easier to claim conservatives are frothing racists than to have to rationally address why the Great Society programs, now half a century old, have been singularly unsuccessful. <br /><br />People are talking about the riot because they are horrified by it, and not just WASP Republicans. It is equally troubling to most blacks in Baltimore, the large majority of whom have nothing to do with the rioting. Take a look at the two videos I added in updates, the one of the mom who recognized her son in the riots. The other is of a US Army E8 retired, who said precisely what I would expect from any soldier - I'm not black, red, green, white or yellow, I'm an American. Follow the link to the parents of Freddie Gray and their pastor who are horrified at the rioting.<br /><br />I know of no one claiming that Freddie Gray is not entitled to full justice. I know of no one claiming that this should be brushed under the carpet. Are you suggesting that there is anyone on the right who is saying otherwise? <br /><br />I said earlier, everyone deserves rule of law and justice before the law. What makes the Baltimore riot particularly troubling is that justice is not at immediate issue. If there was the slightest evidence that there was a cover up or anything of that nature, as Allen West alludes to, then at least that would make the riots understandable.<br /><br />GWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-27145080480288904052015-04-28T21:10:41.236-04:002015-04-28T21:10:41.236-04:00You quote Allen West, who spends 99% of his rant t...You quote Allen West, who spends 99% of his rant talking about protesters, rather than the actual man who lost his life. <br /><br />Breitbart (a meet-up for right wing knuckle-draggers) has studiously avoided any mention of the black men who have been killed by cops in the past month. You couldn't find an article about Eric Harris or Walter Scott anywhere. But they suddenly can't shut up about the riots. Hmmm...wonder why... Maybe it feeds into their psychological need to see black men as apes and hoodlums.<br /><br />Turn on Fox News tonight. See if that moron Hannity or the braindead Barbie or the drunk Irishmen actually spend more than two seconds discussing what happened to Freddie Gray or how the investigation is unfolding. Or if they'll finally bring up the man in Tulsa who was shot by a rich shit who bought his way onto the police force. None of these things will be mentioned. But Hannity for sure will be more than happy to rail about Sharpton and Jackson. After all, everyone's crazy right-wing uncle needs something to scream about. <br /><br />I went to Rush Limbaugh's site (shudder). Lots of posts about riots. Doesn't give a damn about the man whose death started them.<br /><br />My god, could I go on. You guys are the party of loud dog whistles. To your credit, you do spend quite a bit of your original post actually discussing the man who died. But your intentions are certainly not shared by your kinfolk. Though it honestly makes me think that you're just smarter about paying lip service. <br /><br />The glee with which the right try and dig up dirt on dead black men to make their deaths seem justified (see Trayvon, see Michael Brown) is sickening. And if you can't see it, then you never will.<br /><br />You complained recently about states being locks for democrats in national elections. You might as well kiss the presidency goodbye for republicans, because every republican who gets on tv and blames blacks for framed their own murder is just reinforcing the KKK image that the republican has rolled around since before the days of Atwater. Republicans can always count on people like those in the Ferguson police department who regularly traded racist emails. But those people are dying out, thank God.<br />Jeffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-88370696232262002302015-04-28T18:48:36.870-04:002015-04-28T18:48:36.870-04:00Jeff, your ad hominem attacks are ridiculous. Poi...Jeff, your ad hominem attacks are ridiculous. Point out anything in any of the above post that supports what you have just said. Or point out anything in any post of mine for that matter.<br /><br />Further, where the hell are you coming up with this crap about supporting planted evidence. Who would possibly support that? Do you listen to yourself?<br /><br />Point me to someone who does not support the rule of law on the right? And that has to apply to everyone or it's meaningless. So when you have a police officer shoot an unarmed man running away in North Charleston, he is rightly being tried for murder. When they figure out what happened to Freddie Gray, I suspect that at least one officer if not more will be rightly held liable. <br /><br />You seem to want to believe that I and all on the right are evil in some way. Christ, get your head screwed on straight. If you have any serious points to make, I'll be happy to address them, time allowing. I know your smarter than this, Jeff. Please, make your rational points. GWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-10654257766351936602015-04-28T17:00:25.029-04:002015-04-28T17:00:25.029-04:00Just once, I would love to see republicans such as...Just once, I would love to see republicans such as yourself give even 1% of a damn about the epidemic of unarmed men being shot to death as they do about fires and lootings in neighborhoods that they wouldn't dare step foot in.<br /><br />Watching people on Fox news cry crocodile tears for Baltimore while ignoring the rash of cops planting evidence on dead black men they shot, I can't help but wonder if you guys lack brains, hearts, or both.Jeffnoreply@blogger.com