tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post6750540146249570357..comments2024-01-09T15:03:54.986-05:00Comments on Wolf Howling: Osama bin Shark Bait Part IIGWhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-53547124243035160622011-05-06T01:22:53.316-04:002011-05-06T01:22:53.316-04:00I just thought I would add that I'm hardly a l...I just thought I would add that I'm hardly a leftie, and not one to agree with church leaders in this country, who are almost always screaming lefties, but on this occasion I think the juxtaposition in this report in the Telegraph says a lot. <br /><br />"The President said bin Laden's death proved that America would never fail to bring terrorists to “justice”.<br /><br />“When we say we will never forget, we mean what we say,” Mr Obama said. "We were going to make sure that the perpetrators of that horrible act - that they received justice.”<br /><br />However, during a press conference at Lambeth Palace, Dr Williams questioned whether “justice” had been demonstrated by the US action.<br /><br />“The killing of an unarmed man is always going to leave a very uncomfortable feeling because it doesn’t look as if justice is seen to be done,” he said.<br />The White House’s “different versions of events” during the past week “have not done a great deal to help”, he said"<br /><br />(....He went on to call Bin Laden a "war criminal".... )<br /><br /><br />I think you will probably agree with me when I say that Obama looks a bit thin on reasoning when he says that "justice" was done. No, it was retribution, which is a different thing. I also generally agree with your line that he did not want the political difficulty and uncertainty of holding such a prisoner. <br /><br />As for your views on water boarding, well it is torture, but if it can be said to save thousands of lives, there is definitely a moral dilema.... the greater good. <br /><br /> The case for getting intelligence in this way (torture) has been greatly weakened by the general abuse of prisoners in iraq and the fact that so many innocent people, taxi drivers, translators, etc seem to have been picked up almost at random and whisked to Cuba and tortured. Then they have been kept there for years even when it has become clear that they are not combatantants, or if they are, they are very low level ones - as wikileaks has confirmed. If there is any moral justification for torture, it has to be used in a very selective way has to be for the greater good of saving lives. Perhaps it has been used to save lives in some cases.... but the big picture given to the world has been a loss of moral clarity about whether the USA is on the side of right or wrong.Hughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-31597863112999732992011-05-06T00:50:51.144-04:002011-05-06T00:50:51.144-04:00Hi GW, I think our views have more in common that...Hi GW, I think our views have more in common that I first thought. Thanks for an interesting exchange.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-5611149047683523912011-05-05T23:05:27.908-04:002011-05-05T23:05:27.908-04:00I would also add I think "taking out" bi...I would also add I think "taking out" bin Laden was a mistake. He and the other unarmed men in the compound should have been captured and detained for the duration of hostilities, during which time they should have been subject to interrogation for actionable intelligence. I am convinced that the reason that did not happen is because it would have been a political nightmare for Obama, who has gutted our ability to interrogate high level terrorists. That said, I am very familiar with the Geneva Convention. I know of nothing in it that requires us to capture, rather than kill, an enemy combatant. The moment we take custody of them, that changes. But nothing that has come out so far suggests to me that they took custody of bin Laden.GWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-31440733777944029972011-05-05T22:57:46.865-04:002011-05-05T22:57:46.865-04:00Hugh - We know our areas of disagreement.
We ...Hugh - We know our areas of disagreement. <br /><br />We also have a point of significant agreement. It is, as you say, that the war of ideas is of ultimate importance as regards the war on terror. I have written on that at some length if you have any interest. See http://wolfhowling.blogspot.com/2010/04/further-retreat-from-war-of-ideas.htmlGWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-64412030399388738942011-05-05T18:10:20.016-04:002011-05-05T18:10:20.016-04:00Thank you for your courteous and reasoned reply. H...Thank you for your courteous and reasoned reply. However, I beg to disagree with much of what you say. <br /><br />if Osama was an enemy combatant, then he was subject to the rules of war, and should not have been shot at close range while unarmed. <br /><br />But war is a messy business, and I don't want to be too legalistic. "Everyone is innocent until proven guilty" is so much more than a law, it's an idea. It's a fundmental and absolute idea that the West needs to promote. <br /><br />Taking your enemy out in a hit job is also an idea : it's called retribution. <br /><br />Justice V Retribution. This is one of the battles that is taking place. It will be won in the realm of ideas, just as Democracy V Communism, aka, the Cold War, was won. <br /><br />The fact that a single man could evade and mock a superpower for 10 years is also a powerful idea - it shows that military might and force are not equal to the human spirit, albeit a perverted one. <br /><br />The images of americans celebrating the death of a single man also conveys a message and an idea - An entire nation, an entire State, not only that, but a Super State, is on an equal footing with an individual. <br /><br />The power of Osama's cunning and the force of his perverted ideas are equal to all the military might of the USA.<br /><br />We have to win this war. It won't be won by Overwhelming Force. It will be won by ideas. <br /><br />If we fall into the trap of responding to low attacks with equally low attacks, if we sink to the depths of retribution, if we give up what we believe in - the rule of law, the rights of humankind, we will lose this war. <br /><br />Remember, this is not WW II. It's not one great force against another. It's an asymmetric war, and often the use of force will rebound against the power that wields it. <br /><br />In fact, we are losing this war. . Osama won a victory in death. He showed your country up as weak, vengeful, hysterical, frustrated, and confused. I hope very much that the USA will recover from this low point in its history and its failure to respond wisely to the massive provocation of 9/11.Hugh Frasernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-65243261748707774432011-05-04T02:37:52.077-04:002011-05-04T02:37:52.077-04:00Hugh - thanks for commenting.
Bin Laden was an en...Hugh - thanks for commenting.<br /><br />Bin Laden was an enemy combatant by any definition, and he was a combatant in an ongoing conflict. Thus he was a legitimate military target. To try and transpose criminal laws and constitutional protections applicalbe only to U.S. residents onto enemy combatants is ridiculous. It has never been done in any prior conflict in history of which I am aware, nor by any other nation in recorded history for that matter. But perhaps I have missed something. If so, by all means, please educate me.<br /><br />As to the Nuremberg trials to which you refer, they are inapplicable to the current situation. One, the trials occurred after all hosilities had ceased. Thus there was no military reason to execute any of the individuals, let alone keep them detained. And indeed, the people who were tried at Nuremberg were tried solely for acts that fell outside the bounds of the laws of war. Mere Nazi soldiers were freed at the end of the war. Those who took part in the death camps and "final solution" were not. <br /><br />As to you're denigration of the U.S. for being unable to find bin Laden for ten years, you are ridiculously unrealistic. Look to history. It took the Israelies decades to hunt down many of the Nazis who took part in the "final solution," and some, such as Dr. Mengile, managed to elude capture entirely. Finding a single person outside of your home country and who is not in friendly territory is notoriously difficult. If you think otherwise, show me your facts.<br /> <br />As to whether bin Laden would have been more valuable alive - I happen to concur and said so in the below post. It had nothing to do, however, with whether he should have been put on trial, but rather his value as an intelligence source. <br /><br /> .GWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814327154035433443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5492310882851199969.post-20501995102502072692011-05-04T01:55:58.284-04:002011-05-04T01:55:58.284-04:00Er what happened to innocent until proven guilty? ...Er what happened to innocent until proven guilty? Is that an absolute law or does it not apply to Uncle Sam's Enemies? Even the Nazis got a trial at Nuremberg....<br /><br />Is the raid such a triumph? It took the World Greatest Super Power Ten years to find its Number One Enemy.... Not Much intelligence in the CIA there.<br /><br />US Special Forces spent 8 whole Months Training to attack the Compound that was virtually unguarded. Obama dithered and dithered over the decision to go in. <br /><br />In the end, Osama alive and on trial would have been 1000 times more valuable than old man shot at point blank range and chucked in the sea. <br /><br />However you look at it, Osama, wicked though he was, made fools of the CIA and the USA for ten years.... all your jingoism is pathetic. <br /><br />From EuropeHugh Frasernoreply@blogger.com