Saturday, January 12, 2008

What Ridiculousness (Updated & Somewhat Resolved)

2nd Update: Since I wrote this post last night, Lionheart has reacted more or less appropriately to the situation. See his post here. Clearly he is still mistaking LGF's post stating reservations about the BNP with a personal attack on himself. While I hope that Lionheart will further mull this over, the apology he has issued is, for me, enough to satisfy me at the moment - at least in light of what I believe at the moment to be the reality of the relationship between Lionheart and the BNP, as discussed below. Thus, for my part and as I perceive the facts now, I will, and I urge all people who care about freedom of speech and the assault we face from radical Islam, give Lionheart full support in every possible way. I still see him as a lone voice in a critical situation that concerns all of us, though perhaps in need of better skills in discrimination.


Several days ago, I blogged about the plight of Lionheart, a British blogger under threat of imprisonment in the UK for criticizing Islam. You can see the post here. Between LGF, Pajamas Media, Dr. Sanity and numerous other sites, the post ended up getting several thousand hits. Because of my role in publicizing the situation, I need to weigh in on some very intemperate remarks made by Lionheart since then.

As mentioned, LGF picked up my post linked above and ran the following:

In an absolute travesty of justice, a British blogger who uses the name Lionheart is apparently going to be prosecuted for “stirring up racial hatred”—in other words, for railing against Islam: . . .

There is a good reason why America’s founders strictly limited the government’s power to regulate speech. Modern Britain is an object lesson in the Orwellian consequences of failing to do so, and the inevitable abuse of power that results.

UPDATE at 1/7/08 10:43:47 am:
Konservo notes that Lionheart is a supporter of the neo-fascist British National Party, which leads me to state clearly that by posting about the case, I am not supporting what Lionheart says on his blog—just his right to say it.



LGF does not wish to be associated with or seen as supporting organizations or people who espouse a racist / neo-facist ideology. I am not going to get into the nuances of the blog war between LGF and other sites. I am vaguely aware of what is happening, I don't know the nuances and to be completely honest, I don't care. Agree with it or not, LGF espouses a principled position that needs to be accorded full respect. Further, irrespective of whether Lionheart associated with the BNP, LGF offered full support for his right of free speech.

In a subsequent blog post of which I have just become aware, Lionheart made the following statement in response:

Little Green Footballs you are a traitor, nothing less than the equivalent of a Second World War Nazi collaborator who would have been shot because of his treason - I am sure there are many who would have obliged!

Read the post here. That response shows a degree of immaturity and venom with which I do not wish to be associated.

Since this is playing out on blogs, I must respond here in kind with my two cents. It appears from the comments in LGF that Lionheart has supported the BNP in the past merely because, as he saw it, that was the only political party that was willing to take a stand against the growth of radical Islam in Britain. And that appears to be an accurate reading of the political situation in Britain. In the Telegraph, Britain's conservative newspaper, an editorial the other day explicitly made the point that all three major political parties in Britain are courting the Muslim vote and refusing to criticize Islam in the UK. Lionheart, to his credit, has actively supported Israel and people of all races and nationalities. His support for the BNP appears to be on the sole ground of their stand against the growth of radical Islam in the UK. Lionheart appears a brave person in an ever dire situation.

The way for this to be handled was by way of simple explanation, either by e-mail to LGF asking LGF for an opportunity to explain the situation or an even tempered blog post by Lionheart explaining the situation. This is a situation that cried - and cries - for reasoned response, not histrionics.

Unless and until Lionheart acts publicly to withdraw his remarks and correct this situation, I will no longer support him in any way with the exception that I will support his right of free speech. We all make mistakes and do things that, in the light of day, we wish we could retract. I do hope that Lionheart realizes that he has severely mishandled this situation. Should he choose to respond in a measured way to resolve this situation, I am prepared to again offer him my full support in all of his very worthy and brave endeavors.

21 comments:

crowsnest said...

You're quite correct in your support of both LGF's 'principled' stand on the white nationalist issue, and Lionheart's right to free speech (however much it may upset the multicultural apple cart).

Like you, I find Lionheart's hyperbole something of a turn off, but, I'm afraid, cultural cold wars (and I believe that we are living through a cultural cold war)are bound to stir up ugly and virulent human attitudes and behaviours.

The fact that the UK's mainstream political parties are all pandering to the muslim vote will only serve to exacerbate the festering resentment on the multicultural fault lines and, perhaps, reap dividends for the BNP. Although its my opinion that the UK will sleep walk into multicultural oblivion, aided by the indoctrination of the young, unless an economic recession really cuts into the social fabric.

So I don't expect any 'happy ever after' ending either way!

Nora said...

Yes, I agree with you too. This man is living a very difficult moment but I don't think this is the way to handle it. LGF has already given his support for free speech, so I don't know what this man wants. If he believes in free speech, he must believe in every human's free speech and I don't believe calling someone a traitor is to believe that.

Anyway, crowsnest you are right too:
Like you, I find Lionheart's hyperbole something of a turn off, but, I'm afraid, cultural cold wars (and I believe that we are living through a cultural cold war)are bound to stir up ugly and virulent human attitudes and behaviours.

Yes, it is already stirring them up. Unfortunately.

Thanos said...

Well said and well done.

doriangrey said...

Well said wolf, very well said indeed. If you read the comment here http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/2008/01/where-do-you-stand-and-who-do-you-stand.html
You will see that I have been talking to Lionheart about this. I think he is over reacting and told him so. He has issued an apology albeit a weak one. http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/2008/01/my-apology-to-lgf.html
So I do believe that he is making an attempt to correct his mistake.

Perhaps I shouldn't be sticking my nose in this, it's not making me any friends at Lionhearts site or over at LGF, but I believe I understand what Lionheart is going through to some degree.

I also believe what Lionheart is doing is too important to allow misunderstandings to drive a wedge between people who should be supporting each other.

Sodra Djavul said...

If you are going to consider Lionheart's hyperbole an "incitement to violence" then you should also consider LGF posts by Render and Sharmuta regarding shooting members of the BNP, Vlaams Belang, and Swedish Democrats who would find common ground with them (i.e. "jumping in my foxhole") to be "incitements to violence" as well.

Grow a spine. I swear you LGF'ers act like you're still in grade school.

Yes, Charles fired on friendly forces. Yes, in some circles that would be considered treason. Deal with the bed you've made.

- Sodra

Laer said...

A sympathetic well done. We bloggers are forced by the nature of our media of choice to be quick about things. I voted for your initial post to win the Watcher's Council contest because for all the immediacy, you took time to do some sound research. You're not at fault for not knowing the make-up of the man, and none of us can be faulted for standing up for rights.

That said, if the Brits were to prosecute a hate-spewing Imam for inciting religious violence, I'm not so sure I'd quickly blog in his defense ...

doriangrey said...

Sodra Djavul,

It would indeed be juvenile grade school intellectual prowess that would lead one to equate opinions expressed by commentors on a blog with that of the blogs host. Many of the comments over at Lionhearts site are indeed childish rude and combative, but only a intellectually stunted individual would attribute the sentiments expressed by those who post on his site to Lionheart himself.

Sodra Djavul said...

Dorian,
It was in fact assertions that members of the LGF community made about Lionheart that prompted his response.

As for the "incitement to violence," if Charles is willing to allow comments reported to him threatening violence against members of the BNP, Vlaams Belang, and the Swedish Democrats to stand on his site, then he has no moral high ground on this issue.

He chose to let them stand. So he can't come back and accuse his opponents of doing the same, especially after being notified of them. We all know Charles keeps an almost paranoid watch on his blog.

- Sodra

Anonymous said...

Mmm, the lgf is monitored by the FBI and now Lionheart's blog caused him to have an arrest warrant.

This should tell you radicals something.

Geez.

doriangrey said...

Sodra Djavul,

Dude, all I see out of you is someone doing their damned best to throw gasoline on a fire. What is going on between Lionheart and Charles is a tragic and unfortunate misunderstanding. And you are doing you best to see to it that two individuals fighting the same fight do not cooperate.

Lionheart is not a fascist or racist and does not support the "White Nationalist" movement. Charles is not a fascist dictator at his blog.

You are guilty of exactly the same hypocrisy that you accuse Charles of. The difference is that Charles refuses to align himself with White Nationalist racists and fascists and you insist on making enemies out of people who should not be enemies.

Lionheart and Charles are natural allies but your obvious hatred of Charles because he refuses to align himself with White Nationalist racists and fascists to fight radical Islam is causing you to attempt to destroy exactly the kind of alliance you claim to want.

The kind of hatred you harbor isn't doing anyone any good, unless you count the radical Islamists, White Nationalist, racists and fascists as groups you want to help.

Because they are benefiting from the poisonous bile you are posting. Divide and conquer eh...Ya, good looking out there dude, thanks for all your help...NOT...

Morbey said...

Charles IS a fascist dictator on his blog, anyone who says otherwise is a frakkin' liar.

Charles called Lion a neo nazi supporter, undeservingly so.

Charles supports Islam and ultra liberalism in EU by undermining any kind of nationalism as "fascist" and "racist" without a shred of evidence. His recent post with a quote from Griffin he obviously didn't understand is a great example of insane ramblings which go without any questioning on his comment section.

Charles is a PC centrist just like the MSM, he is also a manipulator just like the MSM, trying to inject his followers the "fact" that EU fascism is just as a threat as the islamic invasion.

Is he our ally or our enemy?
/ Methinks enemy.

Sodra Djavul said...

Dorian,
Where to begin...

"What is going on between Lionheart and Charles is a tragic and unfortunate misunderstanding. And you are doing you best to see to it that two individuals fighting the same fight do not cooperate."

Hmm.. It wasn't I who accused Lionheart of being a "fascist" of whatever stripe King Charles accused him. In fact, I've already provided him a donation and intend to make more to support him in his legal issues.


"The difference is that Charles refuses to align himself with White Nationalist racists and fascists and you insist on making enemies out of people who should not be enemies. "

Refusing to align himself with those he disagrees with is fine. Repeatedly and dishonestly smearing those with whom you disagree using the "Hitler brush" makes Charles Johnson a liability to the counter-jihadi movement. I did not do this. Charles did.

"Lionheart and Charles are natural allies..."

And Charles expresses that by smearing his allies by accusing them of being neo-Nazis. His words, my friend, not mine.


"... but your obvious hatred of Charles because he refuses to align himself with White Nationalist racists and fascists to fight radical Islam is causing you to attempt to destroy exactly the kind of alliance you claim to want."

I have no desire to ally myself with true fascists. No one has been able to convince me of that yet, just some LGF activists claiming moral superiority and pronouncing guilt of ALL European political parties currently fighting on the front lines of the counter-jihad. Charles and his mad blog rabble can swap cookie recipes to their heart's content; as long as they don't fire on true allies of the anti-Islamist movement.

Thanks but no thanks.

- Sodra

Darrin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Darrin said...

The thing is, Charles Johnson rants about "teh evil fascist/neo-nazis" in Europe such as VB. Yet VB have shown no sign of being in cahoots with the Islamists and are one of the few parties that support Israel. A quick search of LGF shows that real neo-nazis (in America) do support the Islamists as also evidenced from statements by "Aryan Nation". You can't have it both ways Johnson.

doriangrey said...

Sodra Djavul said...Dorian,
Where to begin...


How about with the truth, but sadly it doesn't seem that you are capable.

Hmm.. It wasn't I who accused Lionheart of being a "fascist" of whatever stripe King Charles accused him. In fact, I've already provided him a donation and intend to make more to support him in his legal issues.

Charles never accused Lionheart of being a fascist. What he did is correctly point out that the long history of the BNP of being a white nationalist fascist organization. This is not something that can even remotely be disputed, it is a historical fact and a well documented one at that.

Refusing to align himself with those he disagrees with is fine. Repeatedly and dishonestly smearing those with whom you disagree using the "Hitler brush" makes Charles Johnson a liability to the counter-jihadi movement. I did not do this. Charles did.

Again, the veracity of your assertion is severely lacking. Charles never labeled the entire counter-Jihad movement with the "Hitler brush". What he did do is provide documentation that several political parties attempting to ingratiate themselves into the counter-Jihad movement were white nationalist and neo-Nazi political organizations. VB and SD both provided substantial self incriminating evidence in this matter.


And Charles expresses that by smearing his allies by accusing them of being neo-Nazis. His words, my friend, not mine.

Charles did not call anyone a neo-Nazi or white nationalist who had not already publicly identified themselves as such.

I have no desire to ally myself with true fascists. No one has been able to convince me of that yet, just some LGF activists claiming moral superiority and pronouncing guilt of ALL European political parties currently fighting on the front lines of the counter-jihad. Charles and his mad blog rabble can swap cookie recipes to their heart's content; as long as they don't fire on true allies of the anti-Islamist movement.

This is just plain an outright lie, no other description even comes close. Charles and LGF are fully supportive of the struggle against radical Islam the are no if's and's or but's about it. Neo-Nazi, white nationalists and fascists are not and never will be true allies of the anti-Islamist movement, to them radical Islam is just another bundestag fire to be exploited for their political gain.

Anonymous said...

Lionheart wants to save the world (at least the UK) from IslamoFascism and the ills of Islam. But, he also wants the glory and a medal for it. That's his biggest problem, it's one of courageous, well-justified but insanely ego-centric actions. The immaturity shown is astounding, but there is clear and good merit in him and what he is doing.

By instigating the 'Tradition of the Knights Templar' he is stirring up the dormant forces in English history and psyche that have the power to 'rise to the occasion' to offset the 'nfortunate consequences of Islam and its hunger for a caliphate revival. The templars slaughtered many Jews on their road to Jerusalem. Lionheart is at least a Judeophile (but possibly only because it suits him). The problem Lionheart faces, and the the crux of the battle for England is finely tuning a cultural evolution that draws upon an often sordid and mistaken past to correct itself into something that unites. How about openly supporting Israel? Now not one Muslim in England will do that...

Political correctness has failed so far, but it's a base to work upon however. If England goes down (as it is) it will be "not with a bang but a whimper" and Lionheart is saying, "let's not go down" however the solutions proposed by him so far are Templar influenced - and that's why to me half his blog shows the utterings that really should be kept to oneself.

Sodra Djavul said...

Charles and LGF are fully supportive of the struggle against radical Islam the are no if's and's or but's about it unless the LGF activists can pronounce you a Neo-Nazi, a white nationalist, or a fascist by invoking the specter of Hitler against those with whom they disagree.

Fixed that for ya, Dorian.

This whole issue is a lot more complicated than simply a cross on a bookshelf and 50-year old political links to the Nazi regime(which I might add can be linked to ANY European political party 50 years old or older).

King Charles proclaiming to his Jewish activist readership Nazi sentiment within European political groups is akin to Al Sharpton proclaiming to his black activists that a political opponent is a full-fledged member of the Ku Klux Klan.

At best, it is irresponsible, even if it can be proven, which it hasn't.

This began as pure incitement by part of Charles Johnson, without any basis in fact, using the most reviled character in the last century to attack his political opponents. It should be of no surprise that it is returning to bite him in the backside.

- Sodra

doriangrey said...

Sodra Djavul,

You dont have any more of a clue what you are talking about here than you did when you said this over at Lionheart.
Just to remind you, here's YOUR post on YOUR blog, What Ridiculousness, in which you clearly state:


You are so clueless it is truly frightening. I will reiterate this for you, though I doubt it will get through your jello brain or unusually thick cranium. I am not Wolf Howling, and this is not my blog.

I came here from another blog because like wolf I supported Lionhearts efforts, and continued commenting because like wolf I thought Lionheart had made an honest mistake which could easily enough be corrected.

What I discovered was people like you who were doing everything they could to ensure that this mistake was never cleared up.

You have made your choice to stand with white nationalists neo-nazi's and fascists. You have also made it clear that you fully intend to do anything you can to ensure that those who will not tolerate white nationalists neo-nazi's and fascists are painted as allies of radical Islam.

This is and was your choice, you can deny it all you want but the evidence is clear for everyone to see. You are no friend of anyone but white nationalists neo-nazi's and fascists and radical Islam.

I am done with you, you are nothing but a liar. You go ahead and continue ranting away to your hearts content, you have already exposed yourself for what you are, I will have no more to do with you.

Sodra Djavul said...

Was it something I said?

You act as though I just gave you an atomic wedgie.

I stand corrected, Dorian Grey, that this is not your blog. You must admit, it would be easy to confuse the two, being your last name is "Grey" and this blog is titled "Wolf Howling." But I was wrong in my assumption and I admit that and offer my apologies for confusing you with the author of this blog.

Other than that, I find your last post quite amusing. Worthy of my scrapbook, in fact.

- Sodra

Wabano said...

Come on, the BNP is a direct offspring of Lord Haw Haw, just like
Lepen's idolized Godfather was Leon Degrelle,
the Dauphin of Adolf Hitler.

Both have done their best to hide
their nazi core but you don't need
to push very hard to uncover the
racist hyena in sheep's clothing...

The hate the "greys" for their skin color, just like their WHITE Saudi Pay Masters...Islam is secretly their shining ideal.

We obviously have at least two stealth muslims posting right here!

Ming_the_Merciless
www.darthProphet.com

Peter Horne, Libertarian Party UK said...

Quote from H.L.Mencken,
"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one’s time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
Whether or not Lionheart is a scoundrel is an irrelevance.